richardf8 | Israelis and Palestinians

I was reading an article today which tallied up the death tolls in the intifada. Something like 840 Israelis killed and 2260 Palestinians killed.

At first glance it is easy to look at the disparity between these numbers and say "Israel is massacring the Palestinians." But to do so would be to overlook much of what is going on.

One must begin by understanding that the words from Hamas, Al-Aqsa, Islamic Jihad, even from Damascus and Tehran have not been that they want Israel to withdraw from the settlements, but that they wish to eradicate Jews from the region entirely.

Now, let's look inside the head of Ariel Sharon. Come on in with me, there's enough empty space in here for all of us. You see, his "strategy" for dealing with the intifada has been to deal more death to the Palestinians than they deal to the Israelis in the vain hope that the Palestinians will realize they cannot win and back off.

Sharon's strategy is built on a false assumption, however, and that is the assumption that the Palestinians value the lives of their sons, daughters, husbands and wives more than they value the ideal of the utter eradication of the Jews in the region.

The imbalance of this death toll teaches us, more than anything, that the Palestinians hate Jews more than they love life. Until that situation is reversed the death tolls will continue to rise, and do so at the nearly 3:1 ration they are now.

Israel really needs to reach out, to make the territories a place of great comfort and prosperity for the Palestinians living there. Because unlike war, which relies on a willingness to follow orders, terrorism relies on a personal vendetta. Deconstruct the vendetta, and you lose the terrorist.

This last point is why Tehran has flat out refused to allow Israel to assist in Bam to accept aid from either would reveal that neither Israel nor America are the monsters Tehran makes them out to be, and they can't have that.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

lordrunningclam.livejournal.com

Hear, hear! As the only first-world country and western-style democracy in the Middle East I've long thought that it was up to Israel to suck up some of the abuse they receive and show at least a modicum of kindness, or at least restraint in return. I think that with proper diplomacy, that obviously never happend, the Middle East could have evolved into a mostly peaceful place within 5 or 6 years of the 6-day war. Arafat is easy to discredit, and other arab demigogus are even easier. Instead, their behavior only encourages the arabs to turn to demigogues for guidance and has bred a generation that dreams of growing up to be suicide bombers. Now I think it will take another generation to breed the suicide bomber/terrorist gene out of the arabs, if Israel handles things properly. My guess is they won't. Offering the arabs, and the Palestinians in particular, a more pleasant future is the only way to ensure Israel's long-term survival.

Stomping on a people when they are down doesn't cow them into submission, it pisses them off and stirs up a lust for revenge.

From:

richardf8

Stomping on a people when they are down doesn't cow them into submission, it pisses them off and stirs up a lust for revenge.

Truer words were never spoken, and in these words is the subtle, ever-missed crux of the situation.

The politics of oppressor/oppressed are inadequate to describe the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. One needs to understand first and foremost the nature of the oppressive force and who is applying it.

The nature of the oppressive force is fear of random violence. The fear that if you go out for coffee some fool will blow himself in the cafe, or if you go shopping, a tank is going to fire on you for violating the curfew that no-one bothered to tell you about. In other words, each side has been employing intermittent reinforcement to the other side's hatred. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians regard themselves as the people who are down in this situation. These are both peoples for whom the myth of oppression is the driving force, for whom the driving narrative is "the Other wants us dead, so we must destroy the Other before the destroy us."

Which brings us to the barrier. I think it can be a useful tool if it can succeed at isolating Israelis from Palestinians long enough for wounds to heal. It can work, and work well as long as steps are taken to ensure economic prosperity on both sides of the fence; myths of oppression tend not to survive good times. Given the right scenario, we can look forward to a day that the barrier is taken apart in a generation or so by Israeli and Palestinian hands. Of course thats a mighty big given.

From:

visservoldemort.livejournal.com

You are both absolutely correct, both you Mike and Richard in his original post, in that a simple policy of brute force can never prevail. Yet a state has a responsibility to protect it's citizens. An individual can show leniency towards his enemies, even those that fight him without it, because it is only him that stands to be hurt and possibly killed. But a state does not have that luxury, nor in fact that right. "Sucking up some of the abuse" works very well on paper, and in some situations even in practice, for instance in the case of civil rights protests in Jim Crow era America and during a fight against a tyrannical regime or occupier, because the activists that were getting hurt and running a risk of lynching or execution in protesting agreed to run that risk when they got into it, in order to work towards a greater goal. But a state cannot decide to not fight back when being attacked, because in the case of a state, that punch that one agrees to allow (and by allowing encouraging more of) equates to dead civilians, who did not decide to get involved, or even know about the intricacies of the political situation. Israel can't allow itself to be hit and absorb terrorist attacks without responding because that means people, who want nothing more other than to go about their daily lives and do whatever it is they do, die. And when there is a danger to a state's civilians there is only one acceptable reaction, and that is to stop that danger any way necessary.

That is my first departure from your statement, that Israel's military operations are not justified and necessary. But, as I have said before, I do agree that military operations cannot alone be the solution. A comprehensive and detailed effort must be undertaken to ease the plight of the Palestinian population. Contrary to what you may think, Ariel Sharon is not the heartlessly cruel or brutally stupid individual you may think he is. Read his biography, the (probably badly named for my point) book "Warrior". You will note, that in addition to a policy of deterrence, he exhibits a strong dislike for civilian deaths as well as being inventive about and willing to improve the plight of the Arab population of Judea, Samaria and Gaza (And yes, I do realize that the majority view is that the first two are propoganda terms used largely by extremists. This is neither true, nor fair to those who use it. Samaria and Judea were names commonly used for the area prior to 1948, and it only makes sense to use them now. They are simply geographic terms that have acquired political connotations due to propaganda efforts by some on both sides.). I do not have my copy of the book here, yet should you read it I feel one can gain a much more comprehensive and human view of Sharon and the political perspective he represents. The areas I mention are close to the back of the book, by the way, so if you pick it up, you will probably have to read the whole thing to find them. It's an excellent read however, and quite enjoyable.

Yet unfortunately, from the position Oslo has placed Israel in, only so much can be done to improve Palestinian conditions. Israel no longer has the political ability to make civil policy for the palestinian population centers. That falls to the Palestinian Authority, a corrupt dictatorship run by an elite that has shown no wish to improve the plight of the palestinians, and in fact a wish to due the opposite in order to use their rage for political reasons. I do agree that Sharon and Israel are not perfect, nothing is, yet the needed military and political solution together is hard to implement now, as the needed population centers are no longer under Israeli political sovereignty. It is an unfortunate situation, which I feel calls for the gradual phasing out of the PA and the creation of a more responsible Palestinian leadership. A Palestinian state West of the Jordan may now be the unfortunate necessity due to demographic reasons, but it can not be done hurridly, because if the current group of gangsters and corrupt terrorists are left in power neither Palestinian prosperity nor Israeli security will be achieved.

I do need to get to sleep now, as it is late, but I look forward to a discussion on this later.

From:

lordrunningclam.livejournal.com

My basic point is this: if the killing is ever going to stop then someone has to be the first to stop killing. If months of painstaking negotiation are going out the window every time some pimply faced horny teenager who thinks his next stop is the heavenly whore house hits the trigger then the situation is essentially hopeless. There is essentially an endless supply of pimply faced, horny, stupid teenagers and an equally endless supply of explosives.

The burden of being the first to stop has to fall on Israel, if only because the surrounding countries aren't countries so much as either a set of factions contained by lines on a map or, to paraphrase Jello Biafra, "Family-owned oil companies with flags." Family-owned oil companies with flags and the money and desire to support the a******s that strap bombs to pimply teenagers and send them off to blow up Israelis in some coffee shop or bus.

I'm sure that by now pretty much everybody in Israel knows someone who was killed in a Palestinian attack and vice versa and its difficult to console such people. I know someone who lost three relatives at the World Trade Center and he is still basically inconsolable. However, at some time the blood feud has to end and the reconstruction has to begin, unless Israel just plans to exterminate everyone else in the region. That sort of thing has been tried before - many times - often with complete success, but I doubt it would work in this case.

It is notable that the family owned oil companies with flags are all for strapping bombs to kids but not for helping them out of their economic hole, even though they obviously have the means. A smart Israel would impress on the Palestinians that fact and befriend Palestine in a way that their fellow Muslems are unwilling to do. A paradigm shift like that could eventually bring democracy and peace to the entire region, which is what Israel should be working toward.

From:

richardf8

It is notable that the family owned oil companies with flags are all for strapping bombs to kids but not for helping them out of their economic hole, even though they obviously have the means.

This is why the only American convoy to be attacked by Palestinians was one that was on it way to interview Palestinian teens for Fulbright Scholarships.

And Mike, your post makes a far stronger case for effecting regime change throughout the Gulf region than it does for Israel stomaching more violence. While extending an open palm would be very nice indeed, unless it is also coupled with a plan to stop the money, explosives, and propaganda, it will fail. Indeed, if the Palestinians were to unanimously decide to halt terror operations, Israel would never know it, because the Saudis, Syrians, and Lebanese have plenty of their own pimple faced boys to send should the Palestinians prove unwilling.

Remember, the Intifada is the Arab world's Proxy war against the Jews. it isn't just about the Palestinians.

From:

lordrunningclam.livejournal.com

I think regime change in the Middle East is a fine idea, as long as it comes from the bottom up. And, no it isn't *just* about the Palestinians, but the Palestinians are *the* raison d'etra.

It's one thing to be hated, it's another to supply your enemies a rallying cry.