richardf8: (Default)
richardf8 ([personal profile] richardf8) wrote2009-01-20 06:27 pm

A Caveat.

[livejournal.com profile] level_head has a post worth contemplating, regardless of its slant, called Unpatriotic.

It's noteworthy to my mind because it points to a way in which we, as Americans, have gotten sloppy in our thinking, especially over the past eight years, but going back farther than that even. We have become accustomed to an us and them style of thought. The right and the left alike have spent the Bush years assimilating the "if you're not with us, your against us" mentality. And here is my warning: any lefty who brings this framework to the Obama presidency is going to be disappointed.

What we have in Obama is someone who grasps realpolitik. And that tends to mean compromise. If the last 8 years have had any effect on our culture at all, it has been to make "compromise" on either side of the fence a dirty word. The partisanship that has been brewing since Nixon, that saw its full flowering in the "Republican Revolution" and the Bush administration have torn this nation limb from limb. Getting us to where we are now demanded that Franken take on Limbaugh, that Maddow deconstruct Coulter, but the battle is now lost and won, and its time for reconstruction.

I think that Obama's ability to blend that which I agree with along with that which I find distasteful speaks volumes about his ability to reintegrate a nation that has been separated as if by a centrifuge. To those who are seeking ideological purity, he will seem a sellout, but to those who want a nation at peace, he may just the ticket.

You can't always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you need.


[Edit: [livejournal.com profile] bluerain notes: "I actually think it's grossly unfair to cast anyone who is angry at the selection of Warren as displaying an "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality." This assessment is correct and just, and I have therefore removed the reference from the body of the post. Thanks to her and [livejournal.com profile] orv for helping refine my thoughts on that.]

[identity profile] orv.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 03:50 am (UTC)(link)
You know, I've struggled with how to explain why I find your analogy invalid. I don't want to come across as one of those "Jews run everything" crazies. But the fact is, pro-Israel is the mainstream position to the point where to criticize anything Israel does is to risk being labeled a bigot. Only a tiny number of ultra-fringe lefties think it would be "just" if your "co-religionists got nuked." On the other hand, there's a whole political party that doesn't think homosexuals should have equal rights.

They really aren't comparable situations at all. To be blunt, if the gay rights lobby had a tenth the clout in the U.S. government that the pro-Israel lobby does, we'd have had gay marriage years ago.
ext_81845: penelope, my art/character (requires further study)

[identity profile] childings.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 04:05 am (UTC)(link)
Pro-Israel =/= pro Jewish.

[identity profile] bluerain.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 04:06 am (UTC)(link)
Richard's attempted analogy involved Israel getting nuked. It seems fair to assume he was discussing Israel.

[identity profile] orv.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 04:07 am (UTC)(link)
That may be, but I was responding to richard's comment, which conflates the two issues.

I would argue that the two are effectively the same in our politics. You certainly can't criticize anything about Israel without being accused of anti-semitism.

[identity profile] orv.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 04:35 am (UTC)(link)
The reason the analogy doesn't work today is that Jews have traveled much of the distance that gays have yet to travel.

But they didn't get there by supporting anti-Semites just because they had other issues in common with them. Which is the issue we disagree on when it comes to gay rights, apparently.

[identity profile] bluerain.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 04:42 am (UTC)(link)
To me this is all beside the point, which is still that Richard accused anyone who was mad about Rick Warren giving the invocation despite his open anti-gay views, and who did not find assinging Bishop Robinson a lesser role on an earlier day 100% placating, is guilty of sloppy thinking, ideological rigidity, and of having assimilated an "if you're not with us, your against us" mentality.

I think that statement is highly insulting, and also very probably hypocritical, since I *very* much doubt Richard would feel the same way if it were, instead, an open anti-semite giving the invocation.

[identity profile] orv.livejournal.com 2009-01-21 04:50 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I agree, and I think [livejournal.com profile] richardf8 should stop ignoring your comments to that effect. It's pretty clear he's only debating with me because he doesn't want to address your point.

Bigotry should be a "you're either with us or against us" issue. I find posts like this one that apologize for it in the name of political expediency pretty disturbing.